For almost two decades, Alex believed that caring meant finding solutions, preventing crises and holding everything together. Supporting loved ones through complex mental health challenges taught him that love and control are not the same thing. Patty Kikos speaks with Alex about learning to sit with uncertainty, setting boundaries without losing connection, and discovering that carers have their own recovery journeys too. He reflects on letting go of the pressure to fix everything, finding hope for his own future and why sometimes the greatest act of care is simply being present.
Content warning: This episode discusses mental illness and complex relationships. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast is for general informational purposes and isn't a substitute for professional mental health advice or treatment.
Disclaimer: The views, language, experiences and opinions shared by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mental Health Carers NSW (MHCN) as an organisation.
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Jonathan
MHCN acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of Country and pays respect to elder's past, present and emerging. We are the peak body for mental health carers in New South Wales, and we advocate for carers rights and systemic reform.
Jonathan
Caring Between Minds. Mental Health Advocacy in Action.
Patty
This episode discusses trauma, caring and lived experiences. Please listen at your own pace and reach out to support services if you need to.
Alex
I had to learn to set boundaries with people around me but also remind them that I am maintaining a connection. So say for example, if I feel elevated from a particular situation, I will actually say to my people ‘I can see this is not a great time to chat right now. I'm going to leave you alone for 15 minutes, and then I'm going to come back and check in on you.’
If I'm going to respond right away, I'm not going to be responding as my best self. But by letting my loved ones know that I'm going to come back, and being accountable for when, they know that I'm still committed to that relationship. Yeah, my devotion always needs that little bit of topping up too. (both giggle)
Patty
Alex Li is someone who has spent much of his life learning how to sit with complexity, both in himself and with the people he loves. Born in Hong Kong and moving to Australia at 11, Alex grew up navigating language, culture and the quiet feeling of being an outsider. Over time, he built a wonderful life here; studying psychology, completing a PhD, running a small business and eventually working in the NSW Health System as a key worker and an educator.
But alongside all of that, Alex has also spent nearly two decades supporting several loved ones through complex trauma, chronic depression, and even suicidality. These are experiences he speaks about with care, while choosing not to share identifying details, so as to protect their privacy. For many years, he didn't even call himself a carer. He was just someone doing what family does.
So, finding a community of others who understood what caring for someone means, changed everything. It gave Alex language, connection and a way to transform those difficult years into something meaningful. Today, he supports and advocates for carers across New South Wales, helping to ensure their voices are heard and valued. Because caring isn't about having all the answers. Sometimes it's simply about listening and learning how to be human together. I'm Patty Kikos and this is Alex Li.
Alex
Life does get overwhelming a lot of times for me. And just a thought that whenever I want to slow down, one thing that I that helps me is to tell myself, okay, I've got a lot of things to do, but I'll just do this one thing for just ten minutes and that's it. Because that helps me break out of that procrastination by saying, oh yeah, it's only ten minutes, not a lot of investment. And the funny thing is quite often once I do that thing for ten minutes, it will just flow and I will just keep going with it anyway.
Patty
So it's like momentum building, you mean?
Alex
Exactly. That's exactly what it is. I also get overwhelmed when I scroll on my phone too much. I do that, more often than I would like to, and I fall into a bit of a time vortex. So sometimes I try to use a couple of fidget toys to help me stay present.
Patty
You've supported loved ones for nearly 20 years, but you've said you didn't always think of yourself as a carer. When did that realisation begin to shift for you?
Alex
I think the first time that shifted for me, was when I met with other carers in a similar kind of situation when I began going to care support groups. So just to hear other people share that common sense of humanity, to say, ‘yep, we are going through similar things’, even though no one there is sharing exactly the same experience with each other. But just to share that humanity, share that experience, made me think that I'm okay to consider myself as a carer. I think it normalised that term for me.
Patty
Would you say it gave you language that you didn't previously have?
Alex
Yeah, absolutely. And it definitely gave me the language, because I used to just think of myself as, ‘I'm just doing what I need to do as a family member, as a loved one for people that I'm supporting in my life’. But having that language to express that kind of responsibility… Like I said, sharing that experience with other people, that's been really helpful for my own mindset as well.
Patty
When we've chatted, away from this podcast, you've said that you describe yourself as a ‘recovering carer, still figuring things out’. And I think that's such an interesting phrase because what does recovering carer mean to you? Like, for instance, I'm a ‘recovering perfectionist’, but in some ways, I've gone too extreme and I could benefit from being a little more vigilant.
Alex
Oh, totally hearing you there. I think the perfectionist bit also works for me too, but over time, I've learned that carers have their own recovery journeys as well. And when I say that I mean people find out who they are, find that hope for the future, whatever that hope looks like for them. And recovery isn't just for the people that we support.
I do believe that carers go through a similar journey when I say that I mean some carers do go through medical challenges. Myself, I used to be hyper vigilant, taking on too much responsibility and not looking after myself.
Patty
So would you say that you were hyper vigilant as a person before you became a carer? Or did the caring role bring that out in you? I guess what I'm asking is what came first the chicken or the egg?
Alex
Great question. I do think that I've always had a bit of a streak of being hyper vigilant. Comes back to that perfectionistic side of me, but I do think that supporting other people does exacerbate that.
Patty
Yeah, I feel like carers navigate different seasons as well, especially when your loved one is in a period of distress versus when they're stable. And you've said that discovering the ‘carers lived experience community’ changed everything for you. What did you find there that you hadn't found anywhere else?
Alex
I think first of all, when others come from that lived experience, I felt understood. For example, when I have to tell people in my life that I can't do something, or can’t them for something, or I have to leave to support my people, other people ask me, ‘oh, why don't you just explain to them…’ or ‘they've got to understand…’, but whereas another carer in a similar situation would know exactly where I'm coming from. Like, I don't have to explain myself or feel like I have to justify myself or feel that I'm about to be judged. So, I think that's where the difference comes in.
Patty
So you're saying that you're with people where you don't need to explain intricate details, because there's already a shared understanding, and you don't have to keep retelling your story from the beginning, for someone that may not necessarily have the capacity to have that level of empathy that you need.
Alex
Absolutely. Yeah. And, sometimes, trying to justify retelling story can be very difficult for me. And so being in the company of other people who get it, it's been really helpful.
Patty
Yeah, it can be retraumatising can't it. And having to re-explain from the beginning?
Alex
For sure.
Patty
Looking back now, when did you first realise that caring had started to affect your own wellbeing? Because you mentioned that you also had a period where you had some mental health struggles as well?
Alex
Yeah, definitely. I think in retrospect, I can see that there was a time about ten years ago when I started experiencing some aspects of anxiety. I thought I was just stressed out from work life, etc. And sure, that may have been a contributing factor, but I had no idea about receiving support as a carer back then. Nor did I even realize that I was being a carer, even though I supported my loved ones through some pretty difficult moments leading up to that time.
Patty
Alex, you've already done difficult things before. I mean, you moved to Australia from Hong Kong. You had to learn a whole new language. You felt like an outsider in your teens. I mean, you have a PhD and you've had your own business, so it's not like you haven't done difficult things before. But is the anxiety you felt as a carer, different to any anxiety that you might have experienced before?
Alex
Sure, there are some similar aspects, but ultimately supporting loved ones in my life… I mean, at times it's literally people's lives that's at stake. So sure, I have done a couple of things that were difficult and stressful, but putting it all into context, they are not life and death situations. (A lot of them). And so, supporting people in my life who have gone through those really difficult things, and seeing people you lost in your life, not feeling great, it's an extra level of complexity and anxiety being added on top of it.
Patty
Does the element of control come in? Because I know that one of the things your loved ones navigate is that sense of suicidality. And so that's not just a life or death situation. It's also something that is completely out of your control, and whether someone is successful within un-aliving themselves, especially when you obviously have a vested interest in your loved ones staying alive.
Alex
Of course. Yeah. And I have learned some time ago that I can’t control what other people think or feel, or I can really do with control my own reaction to it and set up ways to deal with situations as they come along. But a very large part of realizing that is, I get very anxious about that. Knowing that all I really can do is to sit there, and provide whatever support I can.
And not having that control certainly is anxiety inducing, but I believe it's better than trying to control other people, because other people have their own autonomy. And I absolutely do respect that, even if it involves difficult things. So yeah, it's definitely difficult, but I think it's worth it to sit with people to provide that support.
Patty
I mean, carers often move into that ‘problem solving mode’, trying to fix everything. Why do you think that instinct is so strong? It probably feels like an obvious question.
Alex
It may or may not be obvious, but for me anyway, I believe it's to alleviate my own distress. I find it really hard to deal with that uncertainty, and I used to think that it gives me that sense of control to ‘do all the things’. But now I realise it's, often not the best way to support other people.
For me, I've always had the mindset that I would rather work harder now to solve the issue, than letting it get bigger. But now I've learned a lot of times, those things are not for me to fix. Because even if something feels like it's under control right now, who am I to say that things will always be smooth sailing for the future? So even if I do everything I can to sort things out, there will be uncertainty in the future anyway. So, I have to learn to sit with that. And over the time I found that is okay.
Patty
Because there's no guarantee. I mean, I find that extraordinary, and I wonder how long that would have taken you to come to terms with and accept in your own psyche. What helped you shift from trying to fix things to simply being present with someone that is in that enormous amount of distress, especially when you're uncomfortable. It feels very advanced. It feels much more complex than you getting your PhD.
Alex
Oh, God, it definitely was. I can say it took longer. We're talking about years here and a lot of self-reflection work for myself. A very big thing for me was the realisation that sometimes just being present in and of itself can be incredibly helpful, without me having to say or do anything. As a peer worker, I deeply believe that people have the solution to their own trouble in their own minds.
They just need the right people in the right environment to help them find it for themselves. And giving people that space quite often is the best thing that I can do. And who am I to say that I've got the best solution for everyone anyway?
Patty
Can we quickly clarify for our listeners what a key worker is?
Alex
Yeah, absolutely. A peer worker or a lived experience worker is somebody who's got that lived experience of either mental health challenges or distress or being a family and carer for other people who have that experience. So, I guess I mainly fall into the family and carer camp, although having said earlier, I've had the bouts of anxiety previously myself, so a lot of that work involves walking alongside other people, supporting them on their journey to recovery, whatever that looks like for them, but also to be involved in using our lived experience in more complex and strategic conversations on how to improve the mental health system.
Patty
Yeah, because for a long time, mental health has been looked at from the perspective of medical treatment and diagnosis. Isn't that, right?
Alex
Absolutely, yeah. So, whilst those things are important medications, doctors, medical treatment are absolutely important. But recovery has also been found to be about finding things like connections with people, with the values that are important to them, finding meaning in one's life and finding hope for the future. The ‘carer lived experience community’ for me helps me find those really unique perspectives and needs, I think.
Patty
Like what specifically?
Alex
I think a lot of that is coming back to understanding that supporting recovery isn't just about getting our loved ones to do things, whether it be medication, appointments, therapies, but also about having a healthy mindset for ourselves as carers, being that supportive person, understanding that recovery can be a journey of ups and downs, and that sometimes things may not be great, for a temporary period of time, but to understand that it might just be temporary. So, finding ways to support myself and others that it doesn't involve just a medication or therapy side of things.
Patty
And super quickly, does that also mean finding things outside of your caring role that are meaningful to you?
Alex
Absolutely, yes, so important. Thank you for bringing that up. And that comes back to finding that connection to our values, things that fill our cups, so to speak. Those things have been extremely important for me, and I wish I found them sooner, to be honest.
Patty
Yeah. Was the thing stopping you from finding them sooner or pursuing them sooner a sense of guilt, maybe?
Alex
There is that, but also just not understanding that something I could have done for myself, like, ‘oh, shouldn't I be supporting my person right now’, rather than, ‘oh, I need to go and fill my cup’. So, I think it comes back to that lack of awareness on my part.
Patty
Yeah, that makes sense. You've also talked about the power of validation, as in acknowledging someone's feelings without rushing to solutions. Why can that be such a powerful form of support?
Alex
I’ve misunderstood what validation is for a very long time, I thought that if I validated someone, it means that I have to agree with whatever belief that they have, and I may not necessarily hold that belief.
Patty
I used to be like that.
Alex
Yeah, but the truth is that I can validate someone's feelings without having to agree with the contents of what they say, right? Because what someone feels is always valid to them. And I believe that human beings long to be understood. And doing this with my loved ones and in my peer roles, I’ve found validation builds a really calm and trusting sort of energy, and it feels like it's a bridge that helps to build that healthy relationship between myself and my loved ones or whoever I may be supporting.
Patty
How does it show up for you, Alex? Like when you're dealing with people that have complex PTSD and experience suicide ideation and have in fact even attempted suicide at different junctions in their lives.
Alex
With a lot of difficulty! It's difficult to start with when people in my life tell me they're struggling with thoughts coming from trauma or suicidal ideation. There was a part of me that felt like I have to do something. I still do today. But just sitting with them, validating the feelings without necessarily having to give a solution was very uncomfortable for me, and it comes from my own struggles with my own discomfort and fear. But I've experienced time again how helpful it was to help my loved ones feel heard and feel seen. Yeah, but I do want to put on my professional hat for a second here. If any listeners are supporting people through suicidal ideation, yes, validation is wonderful, but you would also want to support your loved ones to get additional support, whatever that looks like, appropriate to you and your person.
Patty
Yeah, and if I could put my professional hat on super quickly as well. Anyone that is supporting a loved one through those kinds of complex emotions, one of the best things I can recommend is doing a Mental Health First Aid Certificate, because you are given very specific tools that don't necessarily come naturally to you, like asking someone, ‘Do you have suicidal thoughts?’ ‘Have you made plans?’
Things that would be very uncomfortable to ask if you weren't given a content for how to administer those kinds of questions, so that's just a hot little tip. Alex, you now work in the lived experience workforce within the NSW Mental Health System. How has your caring experience shaped the way you approach that work?
Alex
Well lived experience is absolutely pivotal in peer work, but it's not just about bringing my own lived experience to support people. It's about using that lived experience purposefully, both to support people, but to also contribute to conversations and decision making that can potentially change the system. I'm grateful for having that opportunity to bring my own carer lived experience to do both of those things.
Patty
Let's talk about your own lived experience. You've coined the term ‘in a purposeful manner’, because what people may not necessarily have noticed is that you aren't sharing specific details about the people you support as you'd like to protect their privacy, and it also respects their preference to remain anonymous.
Alex
Yeah. A very important part of peer work is to be able to share our story in a purposeful manner and only share what we're comfortable expressing. I'm here today is to share my story as a carer, and how I deal with situations. But my loved one’s experiences, they aren't mine to tell. It's important for me to protect my loved one’s privacy and dignity and let them use their stories in their own way. It's not not for me to tell them.
Patty
I like that you've said that it's not just purposeful, it's also very thoughtful and intentional. The other positive that comes out of this is that it helps ensure that the conversations are actually about you and not your loved ones, because I imagine that when you accompany them to their medical appointments or advocate on their behalf, most conversations centre around them and their wellbeing. But this way it ensures the conversation and support centres around you.
Alex
Absolutely. That is very true. Like what like what we've been talking about, I do believe that carers have their own journey of recovery to get through, finding themselves once again in this world, and we absolutely do have a story to tell. So, we definitely have conversations and stories that's around carers.
Patty
We want to see a system that supports mental health care as not only in moments of crisis, but across the long term. How do you think that kind of system would actually look like?
Alex
I think something that can support families and their loved ones together across a longer term journey beyond just crisis help. I believe mental health recovery is a journey. Like I said before, it's got its ups and downs. People need different kinds of support when there's a crisis, of course, but also after the crisis has gone past and when stressful situations do pop up, that ongoing support for both the person and the carer, it's equally important, I'm going to say.
Patty
I agree because, just because it's not a crisis, I do find that little intermittent emergency situations do have a habit of making special guest appearances. It would be great to have a system that addresses the many gaps that exist between someone being okay and then needing that emergency assistance.
Alex
Absolutely, yeah.
Patty
Everyone needs space to process, breathe and not be reactive, especially carers. How do you stop yourself from reacting when you feel so triggered?
Alex
I've realised that my own reactions can have implications that affect how people around me feel. So, I've realised that, like I said, I can only control my own reactions, and I can't control what other people will do. I have to protect my own wellbeing, if I'm going to show up in the right way for other people.
Patty
What would that look like? Would you, for instance, say, ‘I might be tired, I need a little bit of space, I need five minutes, and then I'll come and engage with you’. What kind of things do you do?
Alex
Yeah, I think that's a really great way to put it. I had to learn to set boundaries with people around me but also remind them that I am maintaining a connection. So, say, for example, if I feel elevated from a particular situation, I would actually say to my people that, ‘I can see this is not a great time to chat, right now, I'm going to leave you alone for 15 minutes, and then I'm going to come back and check in on you’.
Patty
I feel like, a lot of therapists would say that with couple counselling as well, at the best of times, much less when someone's caring for someone.
Alex
I think that makes sense. Yeah, because I know that if I'm going to respond right away, I'm not going to be responding is my best self. But by letting my loved ones know that I'm going to come back, and being accountable for when, they know that I'm still committed to that relationship. Yeah, my devotion always needs that little bit of topping up to. (both laugh)
Patty
How long do you normally need before coming back?
Alex
Just as a rule, some are usually said 15.
Patty
Minutes?
Alex
Yes, minutes sorry. But of course, it works different ways for different people.
Patty
That's interesting because earlier you said you set a timer for ten minutes and I said I usually set it for 20 minutes. You come back after 15 minutes; I sometimes need two hours. So, you're a very generous soul Alex.
Alex
I try my best. (both laugh)
Patty
What do you think society still misunderstands about mental health carers?
Alex
I think about this privately, a lot of times it feels like as carers, there's an expectation that we need to give and give and give and give. And if we were to take a break or do something for ourselves, there's that notion that we don't care about our people. I don't think that kind of binary thinking is helpful because carers deserve their own support. Both in terms of how to support our loved ones as well as to fill our own cup. So just because a carer needs support and help, doesn't mean that they are lacking in any way about loving their person.
Patty
If you could go back and speak to yourself at the very beginning of your caring journey, what would you say?
Alex
Oh, that's a big one. I think if I could, I would tell myself that, ‘you're deserving of your own support. You are worthy. You have the right to have your own hope for your own future’. Because so many people pin their entire hope on their person getting better. I used to say, ‘oh, as long as people in my life are okay, then I'll be okay’. But that takes agency away from my own wellbeing.
Patty
Oh, you've really touched my heart, Alex.
Alex
Thank you.
Patty
‘You have the right to have your own hope for your own future’ Wow. And to be honest, I don't know how I can stop saying or feeling things like, ‘I'm okay so long as they're okay’.
Alex
It's not easy, but I still fall into that sometimes. But it's a lifelong journey. I think.
Patty
Alex Li, do you ever get angry?
Alex
Good question. I think I generally don't.
Patty
You seem to be a very even tempered person. You seem to be very logical. Even though you've spoken about managing your emotions, your expectations, the fact that you want to go in control things. And I know that you've sometimes said that you don't always give yourself an opportunity to celebrate because you're like, ‘okay, I've got to move on to the next thing’. What would you what that's like for you?
Alex
Well, thank you for thinking that I'm logical. I think a lot of times in my life, I feel like I'm a problem solver. So even when I do something that objectively could be seen as ‘good’ or ‘celebration worthy’, I simply go, oh, phew. This is done. Because I see it as going from like, taking something from a ‘not so good situation’ to an ‘okay situation’. I rarely ever see anything as being going from ‘an okay situation to a yay, fantastic situation’. I mean, I do celebrate with certain things or get emotional at certain things like, watching football, for example. I do let my emotion out a bit here and there.
Patty
Are you the sort of man, that barracks for your team life, ‘Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!’ (both laugh)
Alex
100%. Apparently, my wife can't watch football with me anymore because apparently I get too, too emotional. (both laugh)
Patty
Oh, that's where you let it out?
Alex
I think so. I've got to have somewhere. Right.
Patty
Is this the same for when you’re driving?
Alex
Goodness me. Yeah. It's not a brilliant look, is it? It used to be worse. I was, less understanding of my own emotions and triggers, so I did get frustrated a lot easier. I would like to think that I'm better now, although I do ask my wife again. (both laugh)
Patty
It's all right. Alex Li, Fast and Furious. Wrap Up Questions. Answer quickly. No overthinking. Are you ready?
Alex
Let's go!
Patty
Okay. Coffee or tea to start the day?
Alex
Tea! From a couple of months ago, I started drinking tea. It's relatively new because I found coffee made me go on autopilot. And I'm trying to be a bit more intentional, but do check in with me in a few months, though.
Patty
You're going to be okay. J (both laugh) Your signature comfort meal when you are cooking at home?
Alex
Chicken schnitzel and chips.
Patty
Yum.
Alex
I don't think it helps my cholesterol, but you did say comfort.
Patty
Okay, what are you most looking forward to in 2026?
Alex
I'm planning a trip with my wife to go to China later this year, so haven't been for a while, so I actually do look forward to that.
Patty
That is amazing. Alex Li, what was your last Google search? Go!
Alex
Oh, I was looking up where I can go for trivia nights.
Patty
Oh, that's pretty cool.
Alex
Yeah. What was yours Patty Kikos?
Patty
Oh, hang on, that's a plot twist, I'm supposed to be asking the questions! (both laugh) Alright, let's have a little look. This is potentially going to be embarrassing because I’ve potentially checked how to spell a word or googled something random, like do flies pass wind? Okay, this is not too bad actually. My last Google search was, ‘Where is Equatorial Guinea?’ And for those that don't know, it's a Central African nation, and the only Spanish speaking country in Africa.
Alex
How about that?
Patty
That could have been worse. Thanks Alex! (both laugh) Thank you for joining us, Alex. You have been an absolute delight.
Alex
Thank you so much, Patty. It's been wonderful being here.
Patty
Folks, thank you so much for listening. That's all we have time for today. Liking, subscribing, and especially leaving us a five star review helps us get these interviews to those that need to hear the most. And if you're more of a visual person, you can watch us on YouTube. I'll catch you next time. Bye for now.
Jonathan
Everything that MHCN does is guided by the lived experience of people with mental health concerns, and the families and carers who support their recovery. We're very grateful for their contribution to this podcast. To support, or find out more about MHCN, you can donate, join our free advocacy network and subscribe to our newsletter. All those links are in the show notes below.