Shaun spent years seeing himself as Joel's husband, not his carer. Supporting his partner through PTSD challenged not only their relationship, but Shaun's understanding of love, responsibility and where caring ends and control begins. Shaun speaks with Patty Kikos about navigating hospital admissions, balancing his own ADHD and anxiety, learning to step out of "fixer mode," and discovering that sometimes the greatest act of care isn't rescuing someone — it's staying beside them through the hardest moments.
Content note: This podcast series discusses mental illness and family trauma. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast is for general informational purposes and isn't a substitute for professional mental health advice or treatment.
Disclaimer: The views, language, experiences and opinions shared by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mental Health Carers NSW (MHCN) as an organisation.
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Jonathan
MHCN acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of Country and pays respect to elder’s past, present and emerging. We are the peak body for mental health carers in New South Wales, and we advocate for carers rights and systemic reform.
Jonathan
Caring Between Minds. Mental Health Advocacy in Action.
Patty
This episode discusses trauma, caring and lived experiences. Please listen at your own pace and reach out to support services if you need to.
Shaun
My mental health anxiety is usually a chemical thing where his is usually a psychological thing, and that is the distinction that makes both different and both easy. Yeah, if I'm feeling anxious a little bit before, if I notice my brain is racing like it is now, I can take a Ritalin or go for a walk or, you know, use those tools and that usually gets it under control.
Where PTSD is, that memory is usually there forever. So that's what's really hard as well. I usually joke that we’re partners in crime, but yeah, sometimes it feels like he's the criminal, and I'm left doing all the paperwork, looking backwards at it, but it's great when we can both look forward.
Patty
Today's guest lives in 2 very different worlds. One is boardrooms, strategy and big picture thinking, and the other is navigating mental health systems, such as hospital admissions and the unpredictable reality of caring for someone you love. Shaun is an executive consultant and advocate, and the husband of 23 years to Joel. He didn't set out to become a carer. In fact, like a lot of people, he just thought, this is what you do. But somewhere between crisis moments, learning the system and balancing both partner and support person, Shaun found himself in a role he never quite labelled until everyone else.
Add to that what he calls his own slightly spicy brain, bringing ADHD, anxiety insight and just enough self-awareness to know when he's slipping into ‘fixer mode’. And you've got someone constantly switching between logic and emotion. Sometimes gracefully, sometimes, not so much. This is a conversation about love, resilience, identity, and the delicate art of not losing yourself while trying to hold everything else together. I'm Patty Kikos, and you're about to get a glimpse into Sean Dean’s incredible personality gift.
Shaun
My husband Joel. So, as you said, we've been together 23 years, I think married for four, but most guys I usually forget, so I probably got it wrong. Sorry, Joel. (both laugh). I support Joel on his journey with PTSD. For me, it started feeling like an obligation. But now it's kind of turned into that realisation that, yeah, I'm a carer and I care for my husband, so it's cool.
Patty
I want to start with something I think so many people will relate to. You didn't actually see yourself as a carer in the beginning. When did that start to shift for you?
Shaun
Well, you're right, I really didn’t. I care for my husband, you care for your husband or partner and after 23 years, it’s just what you do. But I spent more and more time in the system, and as things escalated and started seeing labels and whatnot, people were calling me a carer. And I'm like, what? Now my husband, like, he gets care for free. I don't need to be a carer. And I had always seen carers as external people to the other people. You know, they come into the house, they help you and they leave, type of thing.
But over time, once I started engaging with the services and seeing what the carer role is, I was able to start separating those carer duties and those carer roles and all the emotions and stuff that come with it, from my role as a husband. And then once I saw that separation, I'm like, ‘oh, I do have some similarities there, and that support can help me and stuff’. So, it was an interesting journey to separate the two parts of me to then kind of be a happier person along the way.
Patty
And what about little things like Carer's Allowance? Did that factor in for you?
Shaun
Yeah, it was so funny. Like, we’ll talk later on about the income and stuff. It was like 150 bucks a week and I was like, that just is so stupid. But, having that come into the bank account that said carer every fortnight is like, ‘oh yeah, I am a carer’. Oh okay, I might go get a massage and it's just really, really weird how much those little tokens along the way start to drop into place when you start thinking about yourself a different way.
Patty
Yeah, they're like little pebbles along the way, just to remind you of what you do. And speaking of that I mean, the whole idea of, ‘this is just what you do’. It's so tied into love and commitment, especially in long term relationships. And your relationship also sits in that ‘same sex’ context where historically things haven't always been recognised. Do you reckon that shaped your experience at all?
Shaun
Oh, for me, it was because that was why I kind of didn't see it as a carer. Before marriage equality, when we were going to hospital and stuff, it made it so hard. We spent so much money on lawyers and paperwork, and because of the kind of work I do and the way a relationship is set out, there were powers of attorneys and wills. And then every time I went to the hospital was like, ‘here's my partner’. And because I knew the systems, I'd pull out, ‘here, I have these!’ You could see the relief on the register’s face.
Patty
‘Ive got the Power of Attorney, I’m his Enduring Guardian.’ etc, that’s a lot
Shaun
Yeah. And it just they just went, oh okay, cool. And it made it a lot easier to then be in that role as a quote unquote carer and next of kin. But then luckily enough, the vote came through and we got married and I'm like, oh, it's just a bit of paper, so I don't need these other bits of paper, but I yeah, that that turned out a bit more emotional, than I thought. But yeah, it's a lot easier now to sit down and say, yep, he's my husband, and it’s easier because we get stuff by default.
Patty
Hang on a minute, did you say that it got more emotional than you expected it? Are you saying that this got really real on the wedding day and you got more emotional than you expected to?
Shaun
Yeah, like the wedding day. I picked the 30th of June cause it's the end of the financial year, people that know me will laugh about this. (both laugh) It’s nice and clean from a tax point of view.
Patty
And easy to remember!
Shaun
Yeah, yeah. And it is easy to remember. Yeah. And we just eloped. We didn't need a big marriage. Everyone knows we love each other. So, we eloped and went to a cafe in Katoomba and sat there and had a cup of coffee. And Joel's got a grin in his face. And I’m bawling as I’m writing my name on the marriage certificate.
And then that good, that's the marriage done. And then just little things along the way. We went to Service NSW and updated his license and he's like, oh, can I have your last name? And I’m emotional in the middle of Services NSW. That hit me more than I thought it would. It was nice and it’s hilarious to look back on those moments
Patty
That’s beautiful. And in terms of practicality, you come into this space with a specific professional background because you're used to being in boardrooms. You're an executive coach. What's the contrast been like when it comes to advocating for your loved one in a hospital? And on behalf of someone that has your heart?
Shaun
It’s emotional. Even now, I'm sitting here thinking about the answer to that question. I've got like, goosebumps all over me. It's like ADHD, when things are black and white, and I know how to turn it into grey, and that's great. But for me, the emotional stuff is what gets you to hospitals. Hospitals are hospital, there's boxes you've got to tick and everything else. But it's that mental health, and when you start talking to someone about mental health, it is a lot more emotional. Mental health is emotional. And you're talking about my emotions and Joel's emotions. And if he comes home, in how those emotions are going to work and how safety is going to play out, whereas if it was a broken leg, it's like, oh, he's leg is no longer broken. He can a walk, see you later. So, it's definitely that emotional thing that's keeping in check that I've got to keep. But systems I love, they’re just easy.
Patty
And hospitals are very systems based. And you've got a background where you understand systems. You can actually help people implement systems. What are the good parts about your background that help you as a carer?
Shaun
Look, definitely knowing the systems, understanding them when they're not necessarily documented. At first submission I was actually sitting there reading the Mental Health Care Act. So, Joel had been scheduled, we didn't know what's ‘scheduled’ means. So that was obviously helpful to me.
Now, when I'm not in crisis through my advocacy, systems, allow me to work with the people that may not know systems, and then together we are a stronger team because I can say, ‘Oh, you're doing this for this? Well, how about tick the box this way?’ So being able to reframe those systems helps me a lot more in the advocacy. And then, just understanding the boxes that need to be ticked and helping them maybe be ticked with a different colour pencil is a great way as well.
Patty
And do you have a boss that's very understanding? I ask this cheekily, because I know who your boss is. (both laugh)
Shaun
Well it depends if boss is my husband or if my boss is me. Given that I work for myself. And you know, you say your own words, boss, or every day is a holiday. I like it, but it's hard because, self-employment offered me freedom. That freedom also means there's no obligation. So, I could rearrange my calendar, that sometimes I just wish I could call in sick and still end up with a sick pay at the end of the day. But it's all about balancing those pluses and minuses. But overall, I think self-employment gives me and Joel a lot more freedom than we had or could have.
Patty
And what about in relation to your clients and having to occasionally reschedule appointments? What does that look like?
Shaun
Yeah, for me, I joke that I pick my clients as much as I pick me. So, my clients are very aware that my family comes first. Some of them understand what's going on with my family. Some of them I just say, ‘I need to do something for my family today. This is important, this needs to move, or we can't meet on this day’. And you know, they understand it. To me, the partner comes first. And ironically, with clients, they're not flexible on something that is important to me as partnership, and my family, when it comes to working together, they're not going to have flexibility on that anyway. So, they're not really a client for me, if I'm trying to teach them how to be flexible and get stuff done.
Patty
They’re unlikely not going to be simpatico in reference to your relationship.
Shaun
Correct. I'm kind of lucky there, and I'm a pretty open book. Most people see what I'm up to when they start chatting to me. So yeah, it's very transparent. And again, that's what I get with the benefit of self-employment, just being able to do that.
Patty
Speaking of transparency. Are you honest with your clients about the fact that you have someone that you care for, that you sometimes need to take time off?
Shaun
Yeah. And that's kind of that level of, you know, sometimes it will be, ‘I've got a family thing’. Some of them is, ‘I've got to get a thing with Joel today with a carer, sometimes it will be, Joel's coming home today from his hostel admission and I need my ducks in a row’. Or it may even be that, look, I had to go to hospital with Joel last night’. So, depending on the different relationship I have with the client and the number of spoons I have, like, sometimes I just don't want to deal with the joy or sadness or emotions that come from the client. So, it's all about the relationships that that you build with the clients along the way and how you feel will work both for you and the client and for Joel.
Patty
For sure. And also, how you manage pressure, because it's really something that you can feel when you're the main income earner like you are. Is there also pressure with that?
Shaun
Yeah, there’s pressure all the time, this pressure on me, I suppose as the main income earner. Joel's a creative person in the house. He balances my technical brain. I've always joked that if we find a picture, he picks it and I pay for it and we stick it on the wall. That is just the way it is. It's that role. But the pressure to earn, the pressure to support now, the pressure to keep the whole house running, yes, it's hard. And the pressure also pressures me to earn.
Now that earn obviously comes with an income, the kind of role I'm in, that income is good, which means we can then have access to things like private health care and private clinics. So, like everything, there's a duality. Two sides to the coin. The pressure at the time is good, but after the time the pressure on it has a good result. So, like it's definitely something we don't take for granted. But yes, sometimes I just want to hide under the desk as I've had enough.
Patty
And that hard work and that income means that you're very privileged. You can afford health care and private health, and it opens you up to something that's amazing, because private clinics, compared to the public system are very different. And I think that’s an important acknowledgment because access really shapes experience. And part of that experience for you has been able, to see what it's like to navigate hospital admissions. What does that look like for you and how that changed over time?
Shaun
Yeah. I suppose the first hospital admission was public and that was scary. That was ambulance, not knowing what's going on, very crisis driven. Yep. Holding on. Essentially, literally going for a ride in the ambulance. The second time I happened, I was like, okay, I'm kind of getting used to this now. Here's a process I follow. Here's where the systems are, here’s the boxes I tick. And I knew that, okay, we're not going to be in public forever, here's the private. I know when we get to private, it's going to be a different type of stress. And an easier place to land. And I knew that private was where the work gets done once the crisis is over. So having those 2 places allows me to go into fix it mode and come out at the right times.
Patty
Yeah, so a lot of people don't know that public is often where you land, and if you're lucky, private is where the work can be done. And how has that evolved over time for you, in terms of that safe landing having a good outcome, still here okay, let's transition for the work. What does that look like?
Shaun
Yeah, you’re 100% right. For us the public system is that safe place the land. It's in the ED. It’s usually a high impact situation maybe a suspected overdose that type of stuff. So, it needs urgent specialist attention and that's okay. It's not optimal. But compared to the alternatives it's better. And that forms part of our safety plan. You know it's very far down. But ED is the backstop to bounce on that trampoline to then bounce into private where Joel. Can work with his normal doctors and work with his treatment teams. I can have the space I need to support him, and it's more planned and we've got goals and everything else. So yeah, the public for us is the chaos, but the private is when we get the work done.
Patty
That constant adjustment must really impact your relationship as well. I'm guessing.
Shaun
Yes. It’s like am I a carer today or am I a husband today? It’s kind of like I wake up in the morning and joke about wearing my multiple hats. And, you know, I go to work and do this and go to work and do that. And it's hard shifting between those. And I'm very aware also, as we’ve grown, that I don't want to create a codependent relationship because that removes agency and everything else. So, it's hard to balance all those different roles in my head, especially when the emotional monkey gets on the bike and just goes where he wants to go. But yeah, co-dependency is something I'm very aware of.
Patty
Because you want to be separate people because you're both going to grow and change you, yourself, you are together. You're always going to be moving and, aware of that. What does it look like? Do you have your place in the world? Do you have your place in the relationship?
Shaun
I think I do. It's important that we've both carved out our place. I have to make sure more, I suppose, that I stay in my place and allow Joel to find his place. We've mentioned a couple of times about the ‘fix it’. I do it for a job. I get a kick out of it. It's how I get my satisfaction, it’s fixing stuff.
Patty
The dopamine hit is real, isn’t it?
Shaun
My dopamine is not like scoring a goal is like having a client go, ‘oh yeah, that's fixed!’ and sometimes Joel as the client. But stepping back, it's important for Joel to choose where he wants to sit in the relationship, have the ‘dignity of risk’ as people call it. I kind of look at it more as agency, but, for me it's knowing, I can't save him. And having those places is important because it allows us to grow into who we want to be, not where we feel we have to be. And with PTSD and stuff, it's very much, you're usually where you feel you have to be, not where you want to be. That's important the Joel can choose where he wants to be.
Patty
What's another strategy that you use to cope? Do you use humour?
Shaun
Yeah, I've got to laugh, humour helps me a lot of times. Sometimes, very inappropriately or when an inside joke lands at a hospital or something like that. I usually joke that we’re partners in crime. But yeah, sometimes it feels like he's the criminal and I’m left doing the paperwork looking backwards at it. But it's great when we can both look forward and, you've got to have humour, otherwise it just gets too real.
Patty
This is true. And I guess another strand of emotion that I want to explore with you. Do you think that forgiveness also plays a big role in your journey as both a husband, an individual, a carer?
Shaun
For me, forgiveness is an interesting term and it's one I’ve thought about even internally. Most people they say forgiveness is forgetting. Oh, I forgot about that. I've written that off. I'm okay. It doesn't affect me, all is well. But to me, forgiveness really comes in to why have they done it? Did they have a good motive? Did they understand the motive and PTSD builds a lot of coping mechanisms into your life. When certain triggers happen, you're taught to react certain ways and in other ways that maybe a chance that it's small and you would react differently. So, for me it's about understanding the emotion. And usually once you understand, there's nothing to forgive, there's nothing to forget.
Patty
Some people might be wondering, do you ever, question whether you want to stay or whether you want to go?
Shaun
Stay or go in the relationship? I do question it. And a lot of people ask the question. They're like, I can't believe you do that, or I'll be having a rant about something, and they’re like, how do you do that? And I'm like, oh, I look back at the night, I met him in a nightclub, like, oh my God, there was not a mobile phone in sight. I saw him on the other side of the bar and I'm like, that's the guy I'm going to marry and I’ve married him. And yes, our lives are different and they change. And it's a conscious choice we make. Like any relationship, you get up do the work and be there for each other. Would I change stuff? Sure, if I had a magic lamp? And then I'd probably be annoyed at the changes that that makes.
Patty
Joel's trauma. How has that shaped your role?
Shaun
It’s hard, because trauma isn't fixable. So, some mental health is a chemical imbalance. My ADHD is a mental imbalance. The trauma is not. It's very much something that Joel has to work through. And it's something that I'm trying to do that together. I heard a phrase, ‘it's not necessarily about washing them at all’. It's not about pulling them out of the mud. It's just he gets muddy and I sit beside him and he shares what he wants, or what he doesn't. And then I can walk away and I'm lucky I can wash that mud off have a shower. And it's there.
But hopefully Joel sees that I'm going to come back and I'll keep sitting in that same puddle as much as he wants, and that's important to me that the trauma is there. Trauma is something that we share but not own. And I think that’s an important distinction. Its Ok to share the trauma in the journey with someone, but at the end of the day that’s Joels’ journey to own, like my life is mine to own.
Patty
That's a beautiful analogy. In addition to trauma, what are some of Joel's mental health challenges?
Shaun
Well, I suppose with the trauma and the PTSD, there's co morbidities, the anxiety, ADHD. When it gets to PTSD as well, are you treating the PTSD? Or are you treating the thing that may have enabled the PTSD to happen? It gets very, very hard. But for me, it kind of sits down as my mental health anxiety is usually a chemical thing, where his is usually a psychological thing. And that is the distinction that makes both different and both easy. Yeah. If I'm feeling anxious a little bit before, if I notice my brain is racing like it is now, I can take a Ritalin or go for a walk or, you know, use those tools and that usually gets it under control. Where PTSD is, that memory is usually there for ever. So that's what's really hard as well.
Patty
Have you always known about your spicy brain, about the fact that you have ADHD?
Shaun
I did it was it was quite interesting. I was a naughty kid with colic when I was 5. And in New Zealand we went to a hospital in a small town and they’re like, ‘try this new medical drug, Ritalin’. And it changed my life. Even as a kid it was, I could focus at school. We moved country. I moved to Australia with me. Here, we're like, oh, new doctors tried something different and looked at my brain waves and I'm like, I'll try this. So, I stopped taking Ritalin and my life went in a different journey. It wasn't a bad journey. It was a different journey. But then you know, we started to notice that Ritalin may help. The day I took it; I spoke to mum. She's like, you went to a psychiatrist today, didn't you? I'm like, yeah. She's like, I can tell you're on Ritalin again. And I'm like, oh, yeah.
Patty
So how old were you when this happened?
Shaun
That was probably 25. I was either in my 20’s or 30’s. So, I'd only been off it for about ten years or so. And look, those ten years may have been a lot different. There may have been a lot better impulse control and stuff like that during it. But again, you look back and you go, I got to where I am now because of that. And that’s important with Joel, he got to where he is because of that. And together we both get to look forward and not back.
Patty
Do you find that when you suffer from anxiety, you say that you take a pill that can sometimes help, do you think that level of sensitivity that you have, gives you a greater capacity for empathy?
Shaun
I think all the work I've done on myself I’ve realised that, that there is anxiety there, and that anxiety drives my anger, it drives my passion. I'm anxious to get things right. And yeah, through time it has built that empathy that there is another side to people, not just the brain, though. That's the squishy part. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But yeah, being able to empathize and see where Joel's journey is, it's also been important for me, again, empathise and relate, but that's his rabbit hole. I can't go down it.
Patty
Yeah for sure. I mean, that would teach you a lot about limits, wouldn't it?
Shaun
Yeah. It's limits. It's naming them and going, look, here's what it is. Here's your problem, here's your fly. You go pee it or I'll stand here, and pee on it with you, but it's your fly when you leave. So, it's got to do that I've got to look back. And it's also helped me realise where my limits are when I'm getting short with people. When I go that introspection, I'm like, okay, cool. It's time for me to reach out and get some support, which I can get because I am a carer and carers need support.
Patty
Do you have a psychologist?
Shaun
I do, yes. I am very lucky to have found one that I get on very well with. And yeah, he knows me really well, which is great.
Patty
And what about family support? Do you find that there are times where you've got to be quite mindful about when you seek your family's input, versus when you need professional help?
Shaun
So sometimes there's a bit of masking involved, and sometimes you just want to ring someone and have a rant. You don't want a solution. And parents and family are always out to look for the best for you. That's great. That's what they job is and much like it's my job for Joel to get the best for him, it's their job to get the best for me. But sometimes I just want them sit in the mud with me and I don't want them to feel bad digging the mud out. They just need to sit there with me. And you know, you learn that that, you know, just because you dad can fix the toilet sometimes it’s cool, but sometimes you need a plumber. So, it's that professional personal balance. And with the introspection you can just say, look, I'm just calling to rant. Can you just listen to me? Different members of the family have roles that can fill that.
Patty
What about your physical health? We've talked about your mental health. Tell me about your physical health. Has this been impacted at all?
Shaun
Yeah. My work, again with the Ritalin and digging myself into my work, I'd put on a lot of weight because all I used to do was work. That was a coping mechanism for me. And working long days up at 2am in the morning, you grab a coke and a packet of cigarettes and carry on. That isn't maintainable. Then, just like, you know, Joel, as a partnership, his mental health and my physical health. So, I put the work in. I've lost like 60 kilos.
Patty
You lost my entire body weight.
Shaun
It’s like a third or, nearly a half of mine. It's crazy when I look back at the photos, it doesn't even look like the same guy. And the interesting thing is, Joel stood to slide me the whole way through, and people ask why? And I'm like, well, why did he stick around?
Patty
Is this something that happened gradually over time for you putting on that weight? Like, you know, a little bit like that frog in the boiling water where you didn’t realise that this was happening and it was just creeping up and creeping up and creeping up. And then there was one day that you said, whoa, take me back to that day.
Shaun
I looked at the photos and I'm just like, who is this guy in the photos? I looked at the old photos, and I’d seen our relationship change physically. You know how Joel was acting. And I realised that if I want to be around, I need to change and I need to do this for me. And it was that mindset. Like what I gave up smoking. I put the pack of smokes down and went, ‘I’m going to smoke anymore!’ And I needed that mindset for me to lose weight for me, and take that agency and control back.
Patty
What do you think the greatest gift that you're caring role has given you is?
Shaun
For me, ironically, I think it's been like humility. I take that gift internally, not externally. Being aware of my access and my privilege, which means I can use that to give back to people. I've been put in a good place. We've also had some crap stuff along the way and, you know, trying to make honey, not the other thing is what I want to do with it.
Patty
I can see that. And I'm sure many people listening will also benefit from hearing your story. All right Shaun, let's finish off with some Fast and Furious Rapid Fire questions to end. Don't think too hard about it. Just let me know the first thing that pops into your head. Are you ready?
Shaun
Ready, let’s go!!
Patty
Sauna, cold plunge or steam room? Is there one that you secretly dread the most? And why?
Shaun
You used to be cold plunge. Now it's kind of the end. I'm getting good at cold plunge. This sounds really weird, but yeah.
Patty
What is one word that you would use to describe your current sleep quality?
Shaun
In one of those beep tools? (both laugh) It's challenging definitely. At the moment it's a bit of a high impact thing, Joel’s having an admission. And yeah, the brain at 2am in the morning loves to solve problems. Never when I want it to. Yeah. So challenging. Broken, hard. But you get used to strategies and tools that I’ve learned from carer supports. So creating that space for when those things need to be dealt with and when they can wait until tomorrow.
Patty
A song, maybe a ‘not so popular song that you secretly love?
Shaun
Yeah, it's one I didn't think I would. It was the this is the thing with Joel. He might hear this and say this is cute. But it's this song. ‘All The Things She Said’ by Tattoo. We were discussing this podcast and I'm like, I have to think of a song. He sent the song, and we had a moment. So that is the song.
Patty
Lately, what has been winning, your business brain or your emotional brain?
Shaun
Depends on the day of the week. Sometimes I want the business brain to win, but now I'm aware of the emotional brain. So, it's usually the business brain allows the emotional brain to win. How about we say that.
Patty
I like it, I like it. It's almost like a politician's non-answer answer and I'll accept it. I like it.
Shaun
Nice, I like I'm good at that. There’s that grey we were talking about. (both laugh)
Patty
Shaun, you have been a delight. I hope you've had as much fun being here as I've had hosting you.
Shaun
I have, thank you very much. It’s been great.
Patty
Folks. That's it for today. Liking, subscribing and leaving is a five star review. Really get these beautiful, incredible stories out there so that people like you can hear them easily. And if you are more of a visual person, you can watch us on YouTube. Bye for now.
Jonathan
Everything that MHCN does is guided by the lived experience of people with mental health concerns, and the families and carers who support their recovery. We're very grateful for their contribution to this podcast. To support, or find out more about MHCN, you can donate, join our free advocacy network and subscribe to our newsletter. All those links are in the show notes below.